Sunalaya Board

cool.
debates just never end!

Republican corentia

Engleberg wrote:

>tsarist crimes

>le laugh

I forgot, they weren't put on trial before they got shot :^)

Pantorrum wrote:

Also, note how communists get real quiet when you link a page filled with communist atrocities they can’t refute.

No, I was just making a reply/doing something else. Some of us have the ability to create something thought-provoking through our words.

Esotana

Rezua

Republican corentia wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1921%E2%80%931928)

I was reading this one, but okay. Now's the part where we do a thing called making sure the sources are true on the fact that people were killed for "being religious" as you claim the evil atheist Soviet empire did. Are you unaware of the Russian Orthodox Church's vocal and sometimes violent disagreements with the Soviets due to the fact that they kicked them out from the government's vestiges of power? So much so, that they even aided in the Nazi persecution of Jews in the occupied USSR and other heinous crimes. http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%203235.pdf

The presupposed innocence of these clergymen (and apparently believers too, though I doubt it) were killed because of their affiliations is just ludicrous. You got killed for being a militant, like in every other revolution on Earth. Forgive me if I don't shed tears for nazi-sympathizers and the clergy that was complacent in the Tsarist regime's crimes. They were bad people, full stop.

The real is issue here is that you are hypothetical.

The others make a generalization and you say it doesn't represent of of communism. Then you make generalization like this and say all the clergymen killed were bad.

I'm sure some were bad, but I'm also sure some were innocent too.

Republican corentia wrote:

It cites the Black Book of Communism as a reference, a book which has already been thoroughly debunked by people who have actually read the book and studied its' claims. For example, it will very often count Nazis as "deaths due to communism" in an effort of building a thesis that the Soviet Union was a state based simply on murder and terror. It's a book with a political agenda originally disguised as an academic work, and it shows. It's riddled with mathematical errors and a deep disdain for whatever left wing ideology is out there. The most hilarious thing is that the authors of the book have even "apologized" for it.

"The critics of the book’s claim of 94 million people killed by communism includes some the book’s own authors. One of them that is particularly noteworthy is Nicholas Werth, who is responsible for writing much of the book. Werth is on record as saying that the allegations of a death toll of communism during the 20th century of beyond 85 million as being ‘non-clarified’ and ‘unjustified’. Continuing, he says from the book that the highest possible estimate is 93 million while the lowest being 65 million. In another instance he also admitted that he alleged 15 million deaths by the Soviet Union and Courtois, the editor, seemingly pulled 5 million deaths out of thin air, which just so coincidentally happens to be about as many nazi/axis soliders that were killed in WWII by the USSR, and added it to reach 20 million. Margolin, another main writer of the book, also admitted in the previous Le Monde article that Courtois’s claim of one million killed in Vietnam is also bogus, stating that he ‘never reported a million’. In explaining why Courtois lied, they admitted that the editor was “obsessed” with trying to reach 100 million. Various authors of the book have also protested Courtois’s comparison of communism and naziism with comments such as ‘extermination camps did not exist in the USSR’ and ‘the more you compare communism and nazism, the more the differences are obvious.’"

https://medium.com/@discomfiting/debunking-communism-killed-more-people-than-naziism-7a9880696f67

But you ignore the fact that, regardless of a source for the true numbers, events mentioned on the pag really did happen. And people really were killed for religion, dissent against the communist party, and for a host of other things in communist nations all over the world.

Rhodevus wrote:

cool.
debates just never end!

I wish they would. I’ve already been personally insulted in this debate by Dras, so an end to the nonsense would be nice.

Rhodevus

Rezua

Republican corentia wrote:

I think the use of ad hominem has been overblown. Ad hominem is best demonstrated with this example:

"Pan, you're wrong about x. Also I think you're pasta." - NOT adhom
"Pan, because you're pasta, you're wrong." - adhom

I will cease my glutenous attacks at once out of mercy, however.

You undermine your argument. You sound like a bloody politician.

"Vote for me because The other guy is wrong. He's also fat and stupid."

Pantorrum wrote:

But you ignore the fact that, regardless of a source for the true numbers, events mentioned on the pag really did happen. And people really were killed for religion, dissent against the communist party, and for a host of other things in communist nations all over the world.

And what about all the other sources? You act like that’s their one source. They have dozens of sources for that page.

Republican corentia

The United Sovereign Queendoms of Rhodevus

Pantorrum wrote:

But you ignore the fact that, regardless of a source for the true numbers, events mentioned on the pag really did happen. And people really were killed for religion, dissent against the communist party, and for a host of other things in communist nations all over the world.

I didn't ignore it, I just made a reply to it. Ironically a reply you complained about me not making within whatever time frame you wanted me to.

Communism just doesn't work in its current form.
Capitalism doesn't work in its current form

BUT.
Capitalism is the best modern system available.

AND
Capitalism trends towards communism. a hybrid communism-capitalism is most likely to be our future system as robots and automation take up most of the work force.

Republican corentia wrote:

I didn't ignore it, I just made a reply to it. Ironically a reply you complained about me not making within whatever time frame you wanted me to.

You debunked an argument I wasn’t making. My argument wasn’t about how many people they killed, that’s irrelevant. The wrongful murder of just 1 person is to many.

Rezua

My respect goes to those who are kind and stupid rather than those who are intelligent and arrogant.

Picking on people for being the way they are is pathetic.

Rhodevus wrote:

Communism just doesn't work in its current form.
Capitalism doesn't work in its current form

BUT.
Capitalism is the best modern system available.

AND
Capitalism trends towards communism. a hybrid communism-capitalism is most likely to be our future system as robots and automation take up most of the work force.

Capitalism does work though. A mixed market economy that has mostly capitalist principles with some market controls and regulations is a great system that has worked for hundreds of nations around the world for centuries.

Rezua

Pantorrum wrote:

Capitalism does work though. A mixed market economy that has mostly capitalist principles with some market controls and regulations is a great system that has worked for hundreds of nations around the world for centuries.

*when they mention mixed market economy*

Le yes

Rezua wrote:

*when they mention mixed market economy*

Le yes

Well, there is no such thing as pure capitalism anyway. It’s never existed in modern history. When I say capitalist I usually refer to the economic system of the US, which is a mixed market but mostly free.

Rezua

Rodrania

Pantorrum wrote:

Capitalism does work though. A mixed market economy that has mostly capitalist principles with some market controls and regulations is a great system that has worked for hundreds of nations around the world for centuries.

>Capitalism does work

Loving how it's working perfectly rn

*Gets bombed by a drone to preserve Coalition oil interests*

Esotana

Pantorrum wrote:

But you ignore the fact that, regardless of a source for the true numbers, events mentioned on the pag really did happen. And people really were killed for religion, dissent against the communist party, and for a host of other things in communist nations all over the world.

aaa, the classic goalposts argument
Why do reactionaries love to use these? It's like tankies and whataboutism

Republican corentia

Rezua wrote:

The real is issue here is that you are hypothetical.

The others make a generalization and you say it doesn't represent of of communism. Then you make generalization like this and say all the clergymen killed were bad.

I'm sure some were bad, but I'm also sure some were innocent too.

If I were to say "some were probably good people" then that would imply, in the eyes of the people I'm arguing with (unfortunately), that the Soviets deliberately murdered innocents which is untrue. So I've been very blunt with my way of speaking. Suffice to say I'm not one for speculation or apologetics for an institution as barbarous and murderous as the Russian Orthodox Church. The only basis we have for speculation that completely innocent people were murdered for their faith is a wikipedia article.

Rodrania

Pantorrum wrote:

Well, there is no such thing as pure capitalism anyway. It’s never existed in modern history. When I say capitalist I usually refer to the economic system of the US, which is a mixed market but mostly free.

NOT TRUE CAPITALISM

Esotana

Rodrania wrote:

>Capitalism does work

Loving how it's working perfectly rn

*Gets bombed by a drone to preserve Coalition oil interests*

Communism also seems to work great
*wonders how many people were killed during Stalin’s reign*

Hmm, more than I can count.

And those drone strikes you keep mentioning are against radical jihadi terrorists.

Rezua

*when the communist insists that the bourgeois exploit and mock the poletariat for being less educated but then mocks someone for not arguing the way he thinks is intelligent*

Rodrania

Pantorrum wrote:

Communism also seems to work great
*wonders how many people were killed during Stalin’s reign*

Hmm, more than I can count.

And those drone strikes you keep mentioning are against radical jihadi terrorists.

Posts your sources

Didnt know civilians were radical h
Jihadis either

Rezua

Rodrania wrote:

>Capitalism does work

Loving how it's working perfectly rn

*Gets bombed by a drone to preserve Coalition oil interests*

He didn't say it was perfect.

Republican corentia wrote:

If I were to say "some were probably good people" then that would imply, in the eyes of the people I'm arguing with (unfortunately), that the Soviets deliberately murdered innocents which is untrue. So I've been very blunt with my way of speaking. Suffice to say I'm not one for speculation or apologetics for an institution as barbarous and murderous as the Russian Orthodox Church. The only basis we have for speculation that completely innocent people were murdered for their faith is a wikipedia article.

Oh, you want to criticize Wikipedia as a source. Interesting. Who was it...hmm, who said Wikipedia was a good source? I wish I could remember, but my pasta brain just won’t boil.

Rodrania

Rezua wrote:

*when the communist insists that the bourgeois exploit and mock the poletariat for being less educated but then mocks someone for not arguing the way he thinks is intelligent*

What

Rezua

Republican corentia wrote:

If I were to say "some were probably good people" then that would imply, in the eyes of the people I'm arguing with (unfortunately), that the Soviets deliberately murdered innocents which is untrue. So I've been very blunt with my way of speaking. Suffice to say I'm not one for speculation or apologetics for an institution as barbarous and murderous as the Russian Orthodox Church. The only basis we have for speculation that completely innocent people were murdered for their faith is a wikipedia article.

Believeing that men of power wouldn't kill innocents is naive.

My government killed innocent people. Their government killed innocent people.

There exists no government that is good. Power corrupts men absolutely.