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Omensa wrote:As someone who went through the Ontario Catholic Board, I can attest. While it my not be as pro-lgbt, it's still very secular, especially the secondary schools.

I am in the Ontario Catholic school system and it is getting more and more pro LGBT. In one board, they hung the pride flag in Catholic schools.

Omensa, United hispaniola, and Sundiata

Sundiata

Medi Terra wrote:So unless you personally are a multi-millionaire, I don't see that happening. When was the last time you changed literally anyone's mind in a political debate? Because as this is shaping up, your body count can't be high.

Voting for abortion rights means he's pro abortion as a politician or extremely corrupt. Take your pick.

Maybe. Let's take a deeper look, shall we?
-On the major issues of sanctity of Marriage and saving lives of babies, the Republicans win. That alone should be enough to make your choice for you.
-In social programs, the Republicans believe that it is up to individuals to volunteer their time and money to help the less fortunate. You know what other massive organization also functions like that? Oooooh, the Church! Democrats take your God-given freedom to choose the good away.
-In immigration, the Republicans believe that you can enter the country as long as you do it legally. Democrats believe in totally open borders. As long as the laws regarding immigration are just, they both conform.
-Republicans want a market-driven minimum wage, Democrats want it regulated. Market-driven turns into a living wage because of worker demand, regulated causes more inflation.
-Both are pro-death penalty, so no contest there.
-Democrats tend to lean towards universal healthcare, Republicans believe it is more efficient privatized. Neither really lends itself to Church teaching.
-When it comes to Care of God's Creation, Democrats once again attempt to take the freedom to choose the good out of the equation. Republicans leave it up to the individual.

There's a clear winner to me in this equation. As JPII said, "Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what you ought." One party seeks to improve the world by empowering individuals to make changes for the good, and the other seeks to take the choice out of it, while also embracing the evils of LGBT marriage and abortion. I think I hit the big issues and most of the minor ones roll with the above thesis, let me know if you want to hear any more specifics.

Like most politicians, I think it's fair to call Biden corrupt to the extent that his donors do seem to influence his policy outlook. However, unlike Donald Trump, he doesn't explicitly break the law.

The Republican Party hardly abides by Catholic Social Teaching with respect to wages, the dignity of workers, let alone the dignity of work itself. A minimum wage set by the state is a perfectly rational policy in a nation with decreased union membership amongst its working people. With respect to this topic, the Democrats win and do not veer away from the church.

Democrats win with respect to the death penalty, as they explicitly tend to oppose it.

Where the Republican Party wins is its Pro-life messaging. However, it's position on gay marriage is hardly etched in stone as we're largely dealing with Protestant errancy.

With respect to healthcare, the Republican Party hardly acknowledges the subsidiary responsibility of the state to deliver healthcare to all of its citizens. The Democrats win with respect to this issue.

With respect to immigrants, Republican messaging tends to be hostile to immigrants. Often highlighting its illegal form to the detriment of currently legal and future legal immigrants, the Democrats win there.

Frankly, the major issues that Republicans tend to get right surround the LGBT movement and abortion, beyond that they're severely lacking with respect to policy prescriptions and often veer far away from Catholic Social Teaching.

Don't be fooled by support on issues like abortion and (albeit less today) LGBT concerns, when there is great failure with respect to many others on the Republican side of the aisle.

Theokratiss and Thomas More

Qwertyl wrote:I am in the Ontario Catholic school system and it is getting more and more pro LGBT. In one board, they hung the pride flag in Catholic schools.

That's true during my last year, the LGBT students mostly Protestant tried to start a gay club. Let's just say not everyone was on board with it. Most of the animosity however, came from the Muslim students not the "Catholic" ones.

Christian Democrats, United hispaniola, Sundiata, Qwertyl, and 1 otherThe Pilgrims in the Desert

Sundiata

Ultimately, if we're going to gain tangible ground on the issues of abortion and sacramental marriage it will have to be accomplished through bipartisanship.

I don't like the position we're in as much as the next guy, it's unfortunate that we're having to work within a largely Protestant framework, but the die has been cast.

A market-set minimum wage is absolutely attainable. In my current area working with assembly, 5 plants in a 5 mile area are all competing for the same workforce. Starting minimum for first shift basic assembly is around $15 an hour with full benefits, well above minimum wage. If you aren't satisfied with the pay you get for the work you do, then you find the company down the street that pays more. Scarcity of workforce is definitely an effective driver of adequate payment. No union is necessary in a free market, where you find a safer/better paying/different job whenever you want to and the businesses are forced to adapt to a free workforce. None of that goes against CST.

Ironic that you say the Republican party doesn't respect the dignity of work or the worker, considering that a ridiculously huge percentage of the party is self-employed farmers. Just take a peek at the 2016 election map by district. Almost all rural areas are red.

You're right about the death penalty, the Dems recently changed their platform on it. Reps are heading that way too though.

For the protection of life on both sides of the border, Republicans still win. Hostile language means nothing, policies do. Rerum Novarum and its peripheral documents outline three points: 1. people have a right to migrate. 2. A country has the right to regulate immigration and control its borders. 3. Regulation must be just and merciful. The Reps hits on 2 and 3, and the Dems skip 2 in favor of 3. Proper channels do exist, and if immigrants follow the prescribed process, they are welcomed.

Funny how the one thing that you tell me not to be "fooled by" is the one thing that constitutes an automatic excommunication. I'll happily stay as a full member of the Church and not enable baby killing. I've said my part, I hate politics, don't vote democrat and save some innocents. That's the hill I will die on.

United hispaniola, Sundiata, and The Pilgrims in the Desert

Omensa wrote:That's true during my last year, the LGBT students mostly Protestant tried to start a gay club. Let's just say not everyone was on board with it. Most of the animosity however, came from the Muslim students not the "Catholic" ones.

I went to a public high school (I went for the academics but I'll say it's very left leaning and I'm an outlier in beliefs) but I did go to a Catholic grade school. The public school has LGBT posters in the halls and puts up the gay flag all summer. It's the same for the public grade schools.

There were many good Catholic teachers at my grade school as well as ladies who taught us the Rosary, a Priest from my Church who would be very involved in the community, and the other teachers who were influenced by Protestantism (I think they believed praying to the Saints and Mary was ok but they always wanted to change different words of a prayer to Mary that my school prayed, they technically believed Catholic teaching from what I remember but they seemed kinda Protestant to me).

Overall I'd say ironically I learned the most about the Catholic church after some Protestant family members asked me a bunch of questions to try to get me to start thinking about religion more (this at a time where I had doubts about God and wondered if He even exists). Then I looked into many faiths and and studied what they believed and after studying what the Catholic church believes I can say that I was, am, and forever shall be a Catholic.

My family, even if some are a different faith, always supported me thankfully and the Protestants in my family never were upset that I was Catholic. They ask me questions because they wanted me to think about God and develop my faith (and probably become Protestant). I've always had a sense even as a child that I should pray for my Protestant family members but I also appreciate how they always make me strive to study more in general, academics, history, math, science, geography, what different Christians believe, and what the Catholic church believes. They encouraged me to strive to know more. It's strange in a way, the Catholics in my family helped me start my faith, but it was the Protestants who challenged my faith who made me seek to know more about the Catholic Church and God. God works in strange ways. I've always been sad for my Protestant family members who are not able to receive our Blessed Lord at the Mass and I pray for those in my family who have passed away, especially those who have died and are not part of the Church.

Of course I also have Eastern Orthodox family members and Protestants on one side of the family and Catholics on the other side. It's not like it's a single type of Protestantism either, nope! Anglicanism, baptists, and people who have no clue what exactly they were except that they were baptized (they just say they're some sort of Anabaptist because they honestly don't know what they are).

Qwertyl

All this nonsense going on in the world I blame on the Pachamama shenanigans that occurred at the Vatican.

Omensa wrote:All this nonsense going on in the world I blame on the Pachamama shenanigans that occurred at the Vatican.

It baffles me that such a thing even occurred. Compare this with the Spanish missionaries, in Mexico, who had idols burned and shrines destroyed when they were converting the indigenous people.

Cristero wrote:It baffles me that such a thing even occurred. Compare this with the Spanish missionaries, in Mexico, who had idols burned and shrines destroyed when they were converting the indigenous people.

I know. I get trying to communicate with indigenous folk but idolatry is not the way. Months later and I'm still dumbfounded.

Christian Democrats and Cristero

Cristero wrote:
It baffles me that such a thing even occurred. Compare this with the Spanish missionaries, in Mexico, who had idols burned and shrines destroyed when they were converting the indigenous people.

What baffles me even more is that abortion is legal in Spain, a Catholic majority country.

Sundiata wrote:What baffles me even more is that abortion is legal in Spain, a Catholic majority country.

A lot of Catholic nation's have abortion legal. A tragedy.

Christian Democrats, Fredgast, Sundiata, Qwertyl, and 1 otherThe Pilgrims in the Desert

Omensa wrote:A lot of Catholic nation's have abortion legal. A tragedy.

The gross reality of abortion, in my opinion, often prevents meaningful discourse with respect to national governance because it's so glaring an issue.

Sundiata wrote:What baffles me even more is that abortion is legal in Spain, a Catholic majority country.

Sadly in Spain democracy and atheism are seen are to be necessary to come together. This is the fallout of getting rid of Franco who supported Catholicism.

Fredgast, Sundiata, and Terentino

Sundiata

The Pilgrims in the Desert wrote:Sadly in Spain democracy and atheism are seen are to be necessary to come together. This is the fallout of getting rid of Franco who supported Catholicism.

Franco would have passed eventually, he died in old age. After the restoration of the monarchy, the king rejected absolute power and turned Spain into a constitutional monarchy, essentially a functional democracy.

Omensa wrote:A lot of Catholic nation's have abortion legal. A tragedy.

There are those who believe it is connected.

Nietzsche would certainly have something to say about it...

Sundiata wrote:
Franco would have passed eventually, he died in old age. After the restoration of the monarchy, the king rejected absolute power and turned Spain into a constitutional monarchy, essentially a functional democracy.

I didn't know that part of Spanish history (then again I should study more about Spain and Portugal).

Sundiata

The Pilgrims in the Desert wrote:I didn't know that part of Spanish history (then again I should study more about Spain and Portugal).

It's good to get out of your country's history, it really expands your context. Speaking as an American, our focus and understanding of world events is often myopic. I blame our superpower status for that.

Disgruntled dominicans

To be fair, people from outside the US aren't particularly well versed in international history, or even their own. I think it's more to do with an overall poor education around the globe than any US-centered issue.

As for being "a Catholic nation", I'm not sure such exists anymore. For example, the Health Ministry of Italy published an ad about reopening places of worship and it had three pictures of people praying in their respective religious garb and ritual: a Muslim, a Jew, and... a Buddhist. Apparently, the Buddhist population in Italy is far greater than the Christian population, which doesn't even merit presence in the ad. The population in general regards the Papacy as the irrelevant, perhaps somewhat demented old uncle that you have to be patient with but don't need to take seriously. In Latin America, the religious confusion is so great people claim to be both Catholic and "Spiritist" or into "African religions". I honestly don't know if there is such a thing as a Catholic nation anymore, or even a city. Maybe the Easterners are faring better in this regard.

Christian Democrats, United hispaniola, Qwertyl, Cristero, and 1 otherThe Pilgrims in the Desert

Nueva celtiberia

Sundiata wrote:What baffles me even more is that abortion is legal in Spain, a Catholic majority country.

The problem is that there has been no políticas parties defending catholic ideas. PP is a sweetened version of PSOE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzNTDs9cBIM

I ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ know is this something everyone in the world needs to hear needs to hear.

United hispaniola, Fredgast, Sundiata, and Cristero

Theokratiss

Disgruntled dominicans wrote:To be fair, people from outside the US aren't particularly well versed in international history, or even their own. I think it's more to do with an overall poor education around the globe than any US-centered issue.

As for being "a Catholic nation", I'm not sure such exists anymore. For example, the Health Ministry of Italy published an ad about reopening places of worship and it had three pictures of people praying in their respective religious garb and ritual: a Muslim, a Jew, and... a Buddhist. Apparently, the Buddhist population in Italy is far greater than the Christian population, which doesn't even merit presence in the ad. The population in general regards the Papacy as the irrelevant, perhaps somewhat demented old uncle that you have to be patient with but don't need to take seriously. In Latin America, the religious confusion is so great people claim to be both Catholic and "Spiritist" or into "African religions". I honestly don't know if there is such a thing as a Catholic nation anymore, or even a city. Maybe the Easterners are faring better in this regard.

Did you perhaps get your nation name from Frustrated Franciscans?
Next we’ll have Agitated Augustinians, Bellyaching Benedictines, and Jovial Jesuits (because heresy is a nightmare for the others but welcome to them).

But most Catholics in Spain disagree with the Church on a number of teachings and don’t go to Mass regularly. There isn’t a single country in Western Europe that is still truly Catholic.

In Eastern Europe, Poland, and perhaps Croatia and Hungary come close.

Actually, very small states in Western Europe tend to be Catholic. Malta is quite Catholic, as are Liechtenstein, San Marino, and perhaps others.

Disgruntled dominicans

Theokratiss wrote:Did you perhaps get your nation name from Frustrated Franciscans?
Next we’ll have Agitated Augustinians, Bellyaching Benedictines, and Jovial Jesuits (because heresy is a nightmare for the others but welcome to them).

Indeed! I hadn't heard of NationStates (living under a rock a bit) until a friend of mine showed me the flag of Frustrated Franciscans. The name is so hilarious I started playing for the sole purpose of having this name. Now I must bear the consequences - namely dooming a poor, innocent virtual people to live under the rule of an economically-tactless and politically-challenged Leader. Alas. At least we can die under a catchy nation name and cool flag - that is already dying better off than most.

to be frank, all we learned in school in canada is international history...very little about our own culture and history.

Yet another fire in a centuries old Cathedral, what a coincidence...

Statues of Christ beheaded, statues of saints toppled, Hagia Sofia converted into a mosque, statues of the virgin Mary toppled.

Nothing wrong here brothers ans sisters let's keep sleeping comfortably!

Omensa, Thomas More, Qwertyl, and Nueva celtiberia

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