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Post self-deleted by Dykataar.

Thank you for sponsoring me to talk Mister Chairman.

Honourable Senators, I believe a majority of you already know my stance ont his law. The White Laurel Act is a bill that;

1, breaches the separation of powers. Indeed this act is a bill, and therefore a subject discussed solely by the legislature. Yet TWLA's whole purpose is to establish an institution within the executive. By doing this the legislator recognises they are violating the executive's integrity by forcing upon current and future administrations a body they may not wish to have. When in a republic the citizenry elects the head of state and head of government, the legislature should know to keep off their affairs, as it is the whole citizenry's right to decide on executive policy, and not only the right of their representatives to another section of government. It is to me unethical if not outright obstruction of executive duties for the legislature to impose on the executive specific departments to have under a specific ministry, especially when said department is not an essential one (like recruitment for example).

2, overstreches the executive's resources. As of today we have a government which's low manpower issue has been there for so long that we've been facing for some time now a lack of experienced individuals to fill important positions in government. The fact that the legislature itself chose to expand to such high number of representatives in reach chambers did not help at all. How could be fufill Article I Seciont I: "The White Laurel shall be established under the office of the Prime Minister with a mission to meet the needs of other regions." while we are unable to meet our region's own needs?

Furthermore, Article II - Section 4 read as: "The White Laurel Director can serve in any other position, except Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister, while being the White Laurel Director." is an issue waiting to be created, as it restricts the Director from being MoFA or Prime Minister yet does not prevent them from holding any other ministerial/elected position. This creates a contradiction with L.R.004 Position Restrictions Act's Article III Section I: "The Ministers in charge of Domestic Affairs; Foreign Affairs; Legal Affairs; Culture; and any future ones created, shall only be allowed to hold their position as minister. Ministers may not be allowed to occupy 2 ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to be apart of the House of Commons or the Senate. Ministers may not be allowed to hold the position of Deputy Minister in any other Ministry, but may hold lesser ministerial roles in other ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to participate in any position of government not listed above."

Thank you for reading me your honours. I will answer anything you have to say about my points. :)

The concerns of Islonia have been heard, and while I don't agree with everything said, there are also some concerns I have myself. The most prominent of which being: why do we need this? Litterally all tasks laid out in this bill could be taken on or excecuted by the PM, MoFA, President or SoD, so why create yet another position that will hold a very limited set of tasks itself and take away an integral part of the tasks of the positions listed above? In other cases like this I might have said something like "there is no need for it but it does not do any harm", but even that is not the case here! This act would actively diminish other positions within the Excecutive branch, and besides that leaves room for many loopholes! One of those loopholes has already been pointed out by Islonia, but another is that while the SoD is tasked with providing information and justification on it's actions to the Legislative, the WLD can basically do whatever. Sure, it would still need support of the SoD with most things, but that simply redirects to my previous point. A silly bill with serious consequences which I will probably vote against.

Ashlawn, Islonia, Indian Genius, and Dykataar

I am sponsoring Brototh to speak on the Senate Floor.

Dykataar

Thaecia

Islonia wrote:
Thank you for sponsoring me to talk Mister Chairman.

Honorable Senators, I believe a majority of you already know my stance ont his law. The White Laurel Act is a bill that;

1, breaches the separation of powers. Indeed this act is a bill, and therefore a subject discussed solely by the legislature. Yet TWLA's whole purpose is to establish an institution within the executive. By doing this the legislator recognizes they are violating the executive's integrity by forcing upon current and future administrations a body they may not wish to have. When in a republic the citizenry elects the head of state and head of government, the legislature should know to keep off their affairs, as it is the whole citizenry's right to decide on executive policy, and not only the right of their representatives to another section of government. It is to me unethical if not outright obstruction of executive duties for the legislature to impose on the executive specific departments to have under a specific ministry, especially when said department is not an essential one (like recruitment for example).

2, overstretches the executive's resources. As of today we have a government which's low manpower issue has been there for so long that we've been facing for some time now a lack of experienced individuals to fill important positions in government. The fact that the legislature itself chose to expand to such high number of representatives in reach chambers did not help at all. How could be fulfill Article I Section I: "The White Laurel shall be established under the office of the Prime Minister with a mission to meet the needs of other regions." while we are unable to meet our region's own needs?

Furthermore, Article II - Section 4 read as: "The White Laurel Director can serve in any other position, except Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister, while being the White Laurel Director." is an issue waiting to be created, as it restricts the Director from being MoFA or Prime Minister yet does not prevent them from holding any other ministerial/elected position. This creates a contradiction with L.R.004 Position Restrictions Act's Article III Section I: "The Ministers in charge of Domestic Affairs; Foreign Affairs; Legal Affairs; Culture; and any future ones created, shall only be allowed to hold their position as minister. Ministers may not be allowed to occupy 2 ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to be apart of the House of Commons or the Senate. Ministers may not be allowed to hold the position of Deputy Minister in any other Ministry, but may hold lesser ministerial roles in other ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to participate in any position of government not listed above."

Thank you for reading me your honors. I will answer anything you have to say about my points. :)

Thank you, Islonia, for voicing these concerns. While I do not agree with you first point, your second point does strike concern in my eyes as well. As I will say in response to Honorable Senator Dendrobium, I don't believe the White Laurel Act is necessary and it severely stretches our manpower in the Executive Branch. As a semi-isolationist semi-gloablist, there are many issues within our own region that we need to highlight and fix before we move onto extensive Foreign Affairs.

Dendrobium wrote:
The concerns of Islonia have been heard, and while I don't agree with everything said, there are also some concerns I have myself. The most prominent of which being: why do we need this? Literally all tasks laid out in this bill could be taken on or executed by the PM, MoFA, President or SoD, so why create yet another position that will hold a very limited set of tasks itself and take away an integral part of the tasks of the positions listed above? In other cases like this I might have said something like "there is no need for it but it does not do any harm", but even that is not the case here! This act would actively diminish other positions within the Executive branch, and besides that leaves room for many loopholes! One of those loopholes has already been pointed out by Islonia, but another is that while the SoD is tasked with providing information and justification on it's actions to the Legislative, the WLD can basically do whatever. Sure, it would still need support of the SoD with most things, but that simply redirects to my previous point. A silly bill with serious consequences which I will probably vote against.

Thank you, Honorable Senator Dendrobium for your response. I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I don't see any point for The White Laurel Act to be passed at this time, and if it were to be passed it would be under the constant scrutiny of amendments due to situational loopholes.

Islonia wrote:
Thank you for sponsoring me to talk Mister Chairman.

Honourable Senators, I believe a majority of you already know my stance ont his law. The White Laurel Act is a bill that;

1, breaches the separation of powers. Indeed this act is a bill, and therefore a subject discussed solely by the legislature. Yet TWLA's whole purpose is to establish an institution within the executive. By doing this the legislator recognises they are violating the executive's integrity by forcing upon current and future administrations a body they may not wish to have. When in a republic the citizenry elects the head of state and head of government, the legislature should know to keep off their affairs, as it is the whole citizenry's right to decide on executive policy, and not only the right of their representatives to another section of government. It is to me unethical if not outright obstruction of executive duties for the legislature to impose on the executive specific departments to have under a specific ministry, especially when said department is not an essential one (like recruitment for example).

2, overstreches the executive's resources. As of today we have a government which's low manpower issue has been there for so long that we've been facing for some time now a lack of experienced individuals to fill important positions in government. The fact that the legislature itself chose to expand to such high number of representatives in reach chambers did not help at all. How could be fufill Article I Seciont I: "The White Laurel shall be established under the office of the Prime Minister with a mission to meet the needs of other regions." while we are unable to meet our region's own needs?

Furthermore, Article II - Section 4 read as: "The White Laurel Director can serve in any other position, except Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister, while being the White Laurel Director." is an issue waiting to be created, as it restricts the Director from being MoFA or Prime Minister yet does not prevent them from holding any other ministerial/elected position. This creates a contradiction with L.R.004 Position Restrictions Act's Article III Section I: "The Ministers in charge of Domestic Affairs; Foreign Affairs; Legal Affairs; Culture; and any future ones created, shall only be allowed to hold their position as minister. Ministers may not be allowed to occupy 2 ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to be apart of the House of Commons or the Senate. Ministers may not be allowed to hold the position of Deputy Minister in any other Ministry, but may hold lesser ministerial roles in other ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to participate in any position of government not listed above."

Thank you for reading me your honours. I will answer anything you have to say about my points. :)

I would just like to speak against some of the things you said here. Your first point being that this breaches the separation of powers, of which I disagree with. By that logic, any bill creating a ministry, or legislating in that ministry, such as the Military Commission Act, which requires a military force to be established, a bill that I know you have defended in the past, would be a breach of the separation of powers.

This bill causes no problem for the Executive- while it can, I agree, be formed by the whim of the PM/Pres- which I'll get on to- in fact, creating a force to assist other regions in a non-military way is a good idea. I respect the authority of the government to create her own departments and institutions, but we are entering what can be a dark phase of setting a precedent where the PM can select ministers and such by completely cutting out the House and just calling them secretaries. It is a good idea to have departments and ministries to be legislated, through law or directly to the Constitution, as I fear what will happen is that we will just start making everything secretariats and completely cutting out ministries. I highly doubt you would be in opposition to a civilian aid force, I assume you may even support it, considering it is just made as a nice thing to do- the issue is if we cut out this bill and decide to make it, we start setting the dangerous precedent that the House is just the middle man to be cut out [applies also if we switch confirmations to the Senate].

Secondly, I haven't got a clue what you're saying when this overstretches the govt's resources. This is a volunteer organisation, and as we have established anyone can be Director, as long as they aren't MoFA or Prime Minister. It is a volunteer organisation that does not require a single dedicated job, so there is no over stretching of resources. This isn't a matter of not "being able to meet our region's needs"- a statement I inherently disagree with, but that's a different debate- as this is not a restricted job. I come onto that in the next paragraph.

Finally, Your issue you raised is a fault of LR 004, which is being raised in the Thaecia Reform Act. Logically, though, if this bill specifically states that anyone can be Director [sans MoFA and PM], anyone can do it, which should make this an exception to LR 004. That is dangerous territory to get into, though, however your fault you raise is a fault with a completely separate law.

I won't air my support/discontent with this bill, I think my view on it is pretty obvious, I simply came to show what I disagree with Islonia. Either way, vote for Islonia as Prime Minister, he is amazing :p

Brototh wrote:snip

I should've made it more clear that "1." was a philosophical view of separation of powers and not a legal one. Legally I do agree we should have basic ministries (Legal, Domestic, Foreign affairs; constitutional ministries as of today) enforced because they need to be regulated: it's better to have the government control the military than have it a private organisation that could risk the region's security. However this means we should also have failsafes to be sure such ministries do actually work and not simply slack off. Another bill to write maybe? Who knows. Nevertheless, I firmly stand against organisations like TWL which simply are departments and not ministries, effectively tying up the minister's own agenda by forcing a voluntary (so not even legally obliged to exist - which just defeats the whole purpose of having a law about it). Afterall if citizens do volunteer then they can simply propose their services to the government. It's never been said anywhere any Foreign Affairs Minister would reject citizen initiatives.

Also the "dark phase" as you call it can easily be regulated. After all, it is constitutionally mandated to have three ministries(Legal, Domestic, Foreign affairs), further legally mandated to have one more ministry (Culture), and further constitutionally mandated to have one secretary (Roleplay). I see no dark age here. If your worry is that said mandated positions could be bypassed by the nomination of a secretary, this can be easily rendered null and void by a court ruling. After all it is obvious such action would be in violation of the (supreme) law by creating a position of lesser value (because not legally defined as a ministry) to occupy the duties of a mandated one (which mandate would by the way not even be fulfilled). I also believe having secretaries or any non-legally defined positions only withholding organisational power (Deputy Prime Minister comes to mind here) as an option to create test positions to either trial an idea or trial an individual is one good way for the executive to give less experienced people a chance to shine or simply to have more specialised individuals able to cover specific areas of government work.

As for the issue with LR004 it's just me raising points in front of the legislator that comes to mind before I forget it. Though I still see an issue with not allowing the MoFA or PM to serve the position because what if they'd like to do so? It's not like it'd have any effect on "[person] has too much power!!"

Senators, we have begun voting on The White Laurel Act as amended.

Author: The Bigtopia
Sponsor: Brototh
As Amended By: Snowflame

Given the various forms in which Thaecia's allies have historically asked for her aid in conflicts, internal and external, and seeking a centralized form by which to give that aid;

1.1: The White Laurel shall be established under the office of the Prime Minister with a mission to meet the needs of other regions, particularly Thaecia's allies, in need of support. The White Laurel shall be an office independent of any of the ministries.
1.2: The support provided by the White Laurel could take a variety of forms, but the form and method of support must be agreed upon by the White Laurel Director, the Prime Minister, and the Foreign Affairs Minister.
1.3: The White Laurel shall not provide military aid or participate in military conflicts or operations between or within regions.
1.4: Where applicable, the White Laurel must obtain permission from the legitimate governing authority of a region before providing support of any kind. Permission is implied if the region specifically asks for aid in a certain form.

2.1: The White Laurel shall be composed of a volunteer team directed by a White Laurel Director, who shall be chosen by the Prime Minister.
2.2: The White Laurel Director must be a citizen of Thaecia, and shall be accountable to the President, Prime Minister, and Foreign Affairs Minister.
2.3: The White Laurel Director shall assess needs brought to and found by the President and Foreign Affairs Ministry. The White Laurel shall create and enact plans to meet those needs, including recruiting and coordinating volunteers from the populace.
2.4: The White Laurel Director can serve in any other position, except Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister, while being the White Laurel Director.

Read factbook

Nay

Antenion (IND)
Cerdenia (IND)
Cydoni (IND)
Dendrobium (SOL)
Dykataar (NTN)
Hulldom (LPT)
The Helvetic Imperium (IND)
World Trade (LPT)

Aye

Nay

Nay

Abstain

Nay

I would like to inform the Senate Chairman that I change my vote from Abstain to Nay

Results:
Aye (1) Hulldom
Nay (5) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Dykataar
Abstain (3) Cydoni The Helvetic Imperium World Trade

The bill has failed.

Due to the approaching Senate Election, as per Senate Procedures, the Senate is now in recess. It's been a pleasure working with all of you and to those who are leaving the chamber I wish you luck. To the rest of you I hope to see you next term.

Hulldom, Brototh, Dendrobium, and Dykataar

U guys are all bad

I legally can't post here xD loved working with y'all

Brototh wrote:I legally can't post here xD loved working with y'all

S U P R E S S

ORRRRRRRR-DAHHHHHH!!!

Swearing in of Senators;

Congratulations to all Senators-elect! Here's to a great term and a wonderful journey where your time takes you!

Senators-elect, please take the following oath to be inaugurated into the chamber:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."

Antenion (IND)
Ashlawn (IND)
Cerdenia (IND)
Dendrobium (SOL)
Dykataar (NTN)
Ermica (TCU)
Hulldom (IND)
Pap Sculgief (IND)
Toerana V (IND)

- Taungu
Electoral Commissioner of Thaecia

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."

I do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

I do solemnly affirm that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."

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