by Max Barry

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Happy Rosh Hashanah!

Shana Tovah! A Blessed New Year to you and yours! May the L-rd fill your year with sweet and good things.

Welcome the Jewish year 5780!

Sea Dolphin Lovers, Mossad agent h, Krimzen, and The harith tribe

Happy new year! May this be a year of renewal, prosperity and peace, in personal lives of all here, as well in the USA, Israel and all other good-willing people and nations of the world.

Mossad agent h, Flor-Fina, Krimzen, and The harith tribe

Mossad agent h

Sea Dolphin Lovers wrote:

It is clearly time for a national unity government, WITHOUT BIBI. Let us hope the Likud party dumps him, sooner rather than later, for all of our sakes.

National unity government - I'll give you that. But without bibi it simply not going to happen. More than 2 million people voted for him (either LIkud or parties that had declared they'd only join Bibi), and far less voted for gantz.

Sea Dolphin Lovers wrote:Luckily for Israel, the Israeli public thinks differently. "personal character, integrity and traits?" We wish! He is corrupt, plain and simple. He sold Israeli interests for personal gains and luxury meals and gifts. He is a liar and a thief. He endangers Israel, will sell us for nothing, and do everything to escape from jail. How can someone like him be trusted with our safety? He belongs in prison, not in Balfour street.

You're clueless. Unfortunately, the media campaign succeeded this time, clearly with you. Absolutely nothing more wrong with Bibi's behavior relatively to previous PMs. The police and state attorneys really crossed the line, making legal constructions never before heard of, anywhere on the planet, just to twist the voters' judgement. Positive coverage of a politician - a bribe? Give me ONE example of such a case anywhere in the western world. If that were the case 90% of politicians in the world would be found guilty, and the remaining 10% are just failed politicians.
Read what Allan Dershowitz, not one of Bibi's fans, wrote on this subject. Read what Ruth Gavison, a clear leftist, wrote on this.
Give me a break... It is an attempted coup by legal means, "plain and simple."

Post self-deleted by Krimzen.

I hope all of our Yom Kippur's were excellent. Certainly a good day for me.

Flor-Fina and The harith tribe

The harith tribe

Krimzen wrote:I hope all of our Yom Kippur's were excellent. Certainly a good day for me.

Glad yours was good! Mine was, too. It’s, for lack of a better word, refreshing. Most refreshing day of the year.

Because of Donald Trump's abandonment of the SDF and enabling of the Turkish invasion, I have never been more ashamed to be an American than I have this week.

The harith tribe

Israel Ambassador wrote:Because of Donald Trump's abandonment of the SDF and enabling of the Turkish invasion, I have never been more ashamed to be an American than I have this week.

I understand your sentiments. While I'm not ashamed to be an American, I'm very angry that President Trump has abandoned the Kurds, and allowed the escape of hundreds of Isis prisoners. This action will come back to haunt the USA and our allies.

Israel Ambassador, Mossad agent h, Krimzen, and The harith tribe

Mossad agent h

Israel Ambassador wrote:Because of Donald Trump's abandonment of the SDF and enabling of the Turkish invasion, I have never been more ashamed to be an American than I have this week.

Any involvement of the US is a force for good, and should be thanked for, but the region's prosperity or quiet cannot and should not depend solely on the good graces of the US and its troops.
While this decision does complicates things, allowing Suni Turkey to cause havoc in Syria and at the same time strengthening Assad and its Shi'ite allies, and while the seemingly hasty thought-process behind this decision puzzles many in the region, I don't think you or any other American have anything to be ashamed of. Quite the opposite. Seeing what a withdrawl of relatively small American force leads to, you should be proud of the good grace your country and your people and leaders were good enough to show the region until now.

Whether or not this decision is in the best interests of the American people is a different question, to which the answer, I humbly think, is far from obvious.

Flor-Fina, Krimzen, and The harith tribe

The harith tribe

Mossad agent h wrote:Any involvement of the US is a force for good, and should be thanked for, but the region's prosperity or quiet cannot and should not depend solely on the good graces of the US and its troops.
While this decision does complicates things, allowing Suni Turkey to cause havoc in Syria and at the same time strengthening Assad and its Shi'ite allies, and while the seemingly hasty thought-process behind this decision puzzles many in the region, I don't think you or any other American have anything to be ashamed of.

It is interesting to see the reaction to Trump’s decision from both sides of the aisle. Republicans seem to be condemning it, which I think is principled, because they were similarly against Obama’s abandonment of the Kurds in Iraq.

Democrats, too, are upset with the decision - but they weren’t with Obama’s abandonment of the Kurds. They even welcomed it. Which is annoying for at least a handful of reasons.

I’m against Trump’s decision. But then, I have always advocated for greater American presence in the Levant (and the Gulf) to, first and foremost, deter Iran.

But to speak of the Kurds specifically, I am very much puzzled by Trump’s decision. Truthfully, I think it was a very bad one, for a few reasons:

1) I see the Kurds like I see myself - and Jews generally. I want them to have a state. And I think they’d be a good ally, perhaps another bulwark against Iran.

2) It seems like a real betrayal to these people, who shed their blood before ours, and I want American foreign policy to reflect our values, rather than merely our interests. Our operations in Syria were cheap, too, in lives and in treasure.

3) We didn’t get much out of this retreat. Turkey didn’t give us anything. If they had, I’d be somewhat more understanding. At best, they’re a reluctant ally. At worst, a perpetual nuisance, and an enemy of Israel. If they didn’t house our nukes, I’d be even more dismissive of their interests.

4) Still, Trump is doing exactly what he said he would. This wasn’t surprising. In fact, he’s doing precisely what the Left has been asking for. Which is why I’m surprised by their reaction. It’s not principled. It’s merely a gut reaction against Trump. And if Obama had done this - and he did! - they’d be congratulating each other for it.

Late note: The abandonment of Kurdish allies may make the acquisition of future allies more difficult. The Poles have, at least privately, referred to American promises of backup as a “dangerous delusion,” and a false hope.

My worry: Would Israel be wrong for coming to the same conclusion? Would Saudi Arabia pursue nukes, believing our guarantees of security to be fickle? Maybe. America doesn’t have a great history of supporting our allies (Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq). There are thousands of men and women, buried in shallow graves across the earth, who were foolish enough to trust us.

I'll surprise you: I think this was the least-bad decision Trump could have taken. A few thoughts:
1) Was he supposed to lead to a war between Turkey and the US? That would have lead to a NATO chaos.
2) Untill when exactly were US heroic soldiers supposed to stay in Syria? After victory over ISIS, and when Syria starts to return to normality, what exactly was their mission? How does victoy look like over there? Is there a point at which you would support a retreat? If you support eternal presence of troops in Syria, well, Trump is against it, and he won the US elections on his promise to stop the endless wars.
3) I think H might have hinted to this, but let me state it clearly: at a time when the radical Shi'ite forces are victorious in Syria's civil war, strengthening radical Suni presence in Syria, such as the Turkish forces (and perhaps the return of Suni refugees into the Turkish-controlled area), is in the best interests of everyone else.
4)

The harith tribe wrote:My worry: Would Israel be wrong for coming to the same conclusion?

Let me reveal a small Israeli secret: Israel does not have, and probably will never ever have, any better choice than the USA. From a simply egoistic standpoint of self interest, the US really doesn't need to support us so much, exactly because we don't have any other option - which is another reason why we are so indebted to you guys, why Israelis (left and right) so love America, and why it was such a disgrace and ingratitude by Bibi to go to your Congress and attack your president during Obama's era (and one of the main reasons why he doesn't fit as PM). Whatever America does - Israel will never have any better choice for an ally and friend. The job of the Israeli PM with regard to the US president is more or less to say "yes, sir, imediately, sir", maybe beg for something, and then shut up. We are a regional-empire, but with regard to the US, there is no need to delude ourselves: we are mere pets. Even with President Sanders, or (heaven forbid) President Ilhan Omar, America will be our best option, because any other state in the world will re-allign to criticize Israel more... So, frankly, you need not worry about what conclusions Israel draws, ever (as long as the Israeli PM acts rationally).

The harith tribe

(I’d quote your post, SD, but I’m awful with the text format on this site.)

1) I think the threat of war with Turkey is not our problem, but theirs. Turkey would not have gone to war with us over a 20-mile stretch of neutral zone. And if they had - which would have been surprising - it would have been a severe miscalculation on their part. That said, there's a reason they waited until our announcement to leave before they moved in.

2) Agreed that this was Trump's plan. It should come to no one's surprise. It was, in fact, what the American Left has supported since 2001. Our wars in the Middle East, they claim, are mindless, profiteering and savage. And when we leave Afghanistan, as they have been asking, the result will be the exact same: Abandoned allies, full-scale retreat and defeat.

As for the end result, or the exit strategy, I'm not so certain it was worth formulating in the immediate term. Our commitment to Syria was not so expensive, in soldiers (roughly 2,000) or in treasure, and we had YPG doing most of the dirty work. The costs of leaving, on the other hand, are high: Less American hegemony in the region, a veritable genocide facilitated by a supposed NATO ally, and another notch on our belt that reads: "Don't trust us." In other words, it was worth staying, allowing a de-facto Kurdish state - and, at the very least, preventing Turkey from letting loose hundreds of ISIS prisoners.

3) Your point, in the immediate term, is correct. Turkey may be a counterweight against Iran. But I'm not sure they'd be a good one, exactly. As our relationship with Turkey erodes, and as Turkey grows more authoritarian - not to mention their public groaning about our sanctions on Iran, and their inability to abide them - there have been talks with Rouhani and Erdogan about stopping "the fighting and establish[ing] peace." I'm unsure what to think about this, but it makes me wonder: Is this rivalry meant to last long-term? Would it produce a meaningful check on Iran, or merely a nominal one?

4) I'm not worried about Israel leaving our gang of usual suspects, but I am worried about creating, in Obama's words, "daylight" between us and Israel that allows for those smaller matters to slip under the radar, e.g. China buying up Israeli land and resources. You're probably correct that the Kurdish example won't have any measurable effect on Israeli trust of the Pentagon (you'd know better than I would), but, to address your point about Democrats, I would hate to see the more leftwing of them take the reins of foreign policy.

Netanyahu's criticism of Obama, and courting of Senate Republicans, was an awful mistake, principally because 1) He alienated half the country, and 2) Democrats reacted in an very tribal way to criticism of Obama *that is still ongoing*. That tribalism is very much alive, by the way. The Left is incensed about Israel. Many American Jews turned on Israel as quickly as they could - progressive loyalties and social ties always come before anything - because of Netanyahu. You can argue that their (now dead) appreciation of Israel was fickle anyway, because it could so easily be dissolved by partisan loyalties, but the point is that Netanyahu miscalculated for very short-term gains with the Right. We won't have power forever. Or even much longer.

So, how will Democrats govern? How will they work with Israel? With Iran growing more powerful by the day, and the Left's base foaming at the mouth because of a tribal spat between Obama and Netanyahu, I think Democrats are more radical than we anticipate. Less radical administrations have given billions to Iran.

(There’s always worse than Obama, and Obama was bad, but Ilhan will be a nightmare for our relations with Israel. We can always pivot to Iran again, and if Democrats take power, we will.)

Last note: American lefty jews turned on Israel, not because Israel changed, or *because of Netanyahu,* but because they were looking for a way out of Zionism, and Netanyahu gave them an excuse. In reality, the divide between Israeli Jews and American Jews is religion.

Hurray !!! The end of the Bibi era is finally here!!! Rivlin gave the mandate to form a government to Gantz.
Gantz will hopefully form a national unity government, without that inapt criminal Bibi. It's time for all sane Israelis, the silent majority, to join hands, and reject the corruption, the irrational religious, nationalistic and chauvinistic rhetoric, the Bibistic incitement, and the looting of our national treasures. It's time to put the majority of Israelis at the center, instead of the ultra-radical religious, the ultra-radical nationalists and racists, and the millionaires and billionaires. Good luck, Benny!

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The harith tribe wrote:

1) I think the threat of war with Turkey is not our problem, but theirs. Turkey would not have gone to war with us over a 20-mile stretch of neutral zone. And if they had - which would have been surprising - it would have been a severe miscalculation on their part.

Erdogan is a hothead bully who wasn't afraid to shoot down a Russian plane and could in fact kill Americans if they are on his way. Does staying in Syria worth the lives? Is it more important to the US strategically than NATO cohesion? Is it worth the risk? I can't see how playing "the chicken game" with that a-hole Erdogan serves anyone's interests.

The harith tribe wrote:It was, in fact, what the American Left has supported since 2001.

Last time I checked, Trump wasn't part of the American Left. Moreover, watching the recent Ohio Democratic debate, every one of them (including Sanders and Warren) criticised Trump exactly based on your points.

The harith tribe wrote:full-scale retreat and defeat. As for the end result, or the exit strategy, I'm not so certain it was worth formulating in the immediate term.

Retreat after winning is not the same as defeat. The mission was to defeat ISIS. In that America and its allies were victorious. Now there was nothing to gain and only things to lose by staying indefinitely there.

The harith tribe wrote:

Netanyahu's criticism of Obama, and courting of Senate Republicans, was an awful mistake, principally because 1) He alienated half the country, and 2) Democrats reacted in an very tribal way to criticism of Obama *that is still ongoing*. That tribalism is very much alive, by the way. The Left is incensed about Israel. Many American Jews turned on Israel as quickly as they could - progressive loyalties and social ties always come before anything - because of Netanyahu. You can argue that their (now dead) appreciation of Israel was fickle anyway, because it could so easily be dissolved by partisan loyalties, but the point is that Netanyahu miscalculated for very short-term gains with the Right. We won't have power forever. Or even much longer.

I fully agree. Luckily, we need not suffer that criminal Bibi any longer.

The harith tribe wrote:

Last note: American lefty jews turned on Israel, not because Israel changed, or *because of Netanyahu,* but because they were looking for a way out of Zionism, and Netanyahu gave them an excuse. In reality, the divide between Israeli Jews and American Jews is religion.

Not sure that's correct. Mainstream Reform Jewry stood by Israel, and Israelis stood by all Jews, until Bibi. The problem is that a big part of Bibi's base consists of ultra-radical orthodox who do not see Reform Jews as real Jews. Luckily, again, soon we will have a gevernment reflective of the real majority of Israelis, and hopefully this can heal the rift that Bibi created between us and the majority of American Jewry. Sure, some are radical leftist lunatics who will never support Israel - but there are those on both sides. E.g., Bibi with his ultra orthodox radicals didn't bring the Satmar Hassidic traitors to revoke thelr Iran and Palestinian support. The majority is what's important - not the lunatics on the right or on the left.

Mossad agent h

Wow SDL, your Bibiphobia is truly amazing.

Is Bibi a perfect person? of course not, no one is. But look at what he accomplished: Israeli economy is great, the GDP per capita rose more than $12,000 in the years he was in office (who would have thought we would pass the UK?); we have strategic ties with all moderate Arab states (who would have dared to even dream about that just 10 years ago, before he became prime minister?); the ties with the US have never been better, we have an American embassy in Jerusalem and a recognition of sovereignty in the Golan; the ties with Russia have never been better (I mean, who would have thought the IAF command would have a direct line to the Russian airforce command); we have been able to prevent Iran from getting to nukes; we have made more than a 1,000 airstrikes on Iranian targets in Syria and Lebanon without even one Israeli fatality; We uncoverred the Hizbullah underground strategic network; Infrastructure in Israel has never been better; Public transport in Israel has never been better; and more and more.

If you think Gantz could have gotten us here, you're deadly wrong. He's not such a bad option, I'll give you that, but he has a lot to learn before reaching to Bibi's level.

With regard to your "just not Bibi" cries of joy, I would suggest you read what the King of Israel replied to Hadad in 1 Kings 20, 11. In Hebrew it sounds better, so I apologize to those who can't read it in the original: אל יתהלל חוגר כמפתח.

In sum, I don't think a national unity government without Bibi is a real option. I would predict Bibi will continue as prime minister for at least the next two years. We shall just have to wait and see who's correct.

Also, your depiction of the relationship between an Israeli prime minister and an American President is clearly wrong. The relationship is absolutely not as one-sided as you and the other leftists are trying to portray. I can tell you as a fact, that there is a lot, a lot, a lot, of things that the US gets from Israel, intelligence-wise, weapon developement -wise, technology-wise, and economicly-wise. Sure, the without the US support Israel would have been in a terrible terrible position, but the ties are absolutely not one-sided.

And beyond all that, by supporting Israel. the US also gets to be morally-right. Don't underestimate that.

Mossad agent h

I would like to add one note, in case some Iranians read this board, given their preparations in the last three weeks or so: Don't you dare, don't you dare, confuse the political disagreements within Israel with any kind of weakness. This would be a mistake you would regret for eternity, literally.
Israel sees your preparations. Israel knows what you prepare. Israel knows where those cruise missiles are. Israel knows your evil leader's orders, and Israel will know seconds after those are launched. Israel is no Saudi Arabia. Israel will react with brute force to them being launched.
The Israeli public, right and left, is more united than ever vis a vis Iran's cult of evil leaders and their proxies.
Don't mess with us.

Mossad agent h wrote:I would like to add one note, in case some Iranians read this board, given their preparations in the last three weeks or so: Don't you dare, don't you dare, confuse the political disagreements within Israel with any kind of weakness. This would be a mistake you would regret for eternity, literally.
Israel sees your preparations. Israel knows what you prepare. Israel knows where those cruise missiles are. Israel knows your evil leader's orders, and Israel will know seconds after those are launched. Israel is no Saudi Arabia. Israel will react with brute force to them being launched.
The Israeli public, right and left, is more united than ever vis a vis Iran's cult of evil leaders and their proxies.
Don't mess with us.

I'm not sure the tone is helpful, but with the substance I fully agree.

Mossad agent h wrote:look at what he accomplished:

Classic Bibi. Taking credit for what he's not repsonsible for.

Mossad agent h wrote: Israeli economy is great, the GDP per capita rose more than $12,000 in the years he was in office (who would have thought we would pass the UK?);

That's not Bibi. That's the Israeli people and the treasury ministers, Lapid and Kahlon.

Mossad agent h wrote: we have strategic ties with all moderate Arab states (who would have dared to even dream about that just 10 years ago, before he became prime minister?);

That's not Bibi. That's Iran.

Mossad agent h wrote: the ties with the US have never been better, we have an American embassy in Jerusalem and a recognition of sovereignty in the Golan;

That's not Bibi. That's Trump.

Mossad agent h wrote:the ties with Russia have never been better (I mean, who would have thought the IAF command would have a direct line to the Russian airforce command);

That's not Bibi. That's Putin.

Mossad agent h wrote: we have been able to prevent Iran from getting to nukes; we have made more than a 1,000 airstrikes on Iranian targets in Syria and Lebanon without even one Israeli fatality; We uncoverred the Hizbullah underground strategic network;

That's not Bibi. That's the IDF and the US.

Mossad agent h wrote:I would suggest you read what the King of Israel replied to Hadad in 1 Kings 20, 11. In Hebrew it sounds better, so I apologize to those who can't read it in the original: אל יתהלל חוגר כמפתח.

Last time I checked, Ahab wasn't such a good king... For you to quote him you must be desperate.

Mossad agent h

We all salute the US and its special forces heroes for that incredible raid and the getting rid of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. The world is a much better place today thanks to you.

Thank you.

Mossad agent h

SDL - you're hilarious. I bet if things were bad it would all be because of Bibi, but when things in Israel are going well, it's thanks to others.

But today, with the great news coming from the US - your post seems too petty to deserve serious reply. Let's leave it at that.

Hello, I joined this region because I love Isreal and I made an Isreal themed nation so it would make sense to move here.

Jews rule wrote:Hello, I joined this region because I love Isreal and I made an Isreal themed nation so it would make sense to move here.

Welcome, we hope you enjoy your stay here!

Mossad agent h and Jews rule

Hello from Rhode Island,
I have chosen this region as I have discovered recently I am Jewish and would love to move to Israel in real life but I have no official logically provable evidence that states that I'm Jewish. I grew up as a Catholic and became pagan when I was younger because I knew that I felt I was not a Christian inherently. I knew that my path was elsewhere, as the last few years I have felt into it and all the pieces are there. I could talk more about this but it is a very long story.
Thank you,

Krimzen and Jews rule

Welcome Hebran to the region of Israel. I hope in RL you have found your path. Best of luck on your search.

Jews rule and Hebran

Flor-Fina wrote:Welcome Hebran to the region of Israel. I hope in RL you have found your path. Best of luck on your search.

Thank you Fina I will need it

Jews rule and Chanoch

Mossad agent h

Israel today is under attack.

Just in the past 14 hours, since 06:00 A.M (Israel time), more than 190 rockets have been fired, non-stop, from Gaza towards civilian targets all around southern and central Israel. This, after the successful targeting of the terrorist scum Abu Al-Ata (may he burn in hell for eternity), the head of military wing of the Iranian-backed Islamic Jihad scums. That scum was personally responsible for most of the terrorist attacks against Israel in the past year. Our part of the world is a better place today. Congrats to the IDF and Shabak for the great success.

We will always defend ourselves. The days when Jews were attacked with impunity are forever gone. We shall reach to whoever tries to attack us, and vaporize them, wherever they are.

Congrats also to our amazing air defence, for the major success in targeting every effective rocket, thus preventing any Israeli casualty.

Rockets continue to be fired on us as I write these lines. This may continue for the coming days. We are ready.

Flor-Fina, Krimzen, The harith tribe, Armenos, and 2 othersJews rule, and Hebran

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